Hi from a French in Indonesia

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Christophe
New Keeper

Posts: 4

Country (residing now): Indonesia
Country (originally from): France
Children, Ages: Alice (7) & Jasmine (4)
Majority Language: Indonesian
Minority Language(s): French

Hi from a French in Indonesia Oct 28, 2018 22:07:41 GMT 9

Quote

Post by Christophe on Oct 28, 2018 22:07:41 GMT 9

Hi all,

I'm Christophe, a French citizen who has been living in Indonesia for a little more than 10 years. I married my Indonesian wife in 2010 after a few years there and we have used Indonesian language right from the beginning. I have good proficiency of spoken and written Indonesian, while my wife spoke no French and very little English when we met, and some basic French now.

Our first daughter saw the light of day in October 2011, followed three years later by our second daughter. I wish I had come across this website and forum at that time since I kind of thought back then that speaking French would come naturally to my daughters if I spoke French to them, underestimating the huge gap in exposure between French and Indonesian as well as the absence of need for them to speak French (since they heard me speaking Indonesian with their mother and everybody else in our environment from day 1).

The thing is that they hear French only when I speak specifically to them and that is the sole source of French language to them. It's 95% of Indonesian vs. 5% of French. As motivated as I was, when my kid got 1 y-o and more and started producing understandable words and communicating with the whole world but me...well, it started to be veeeery hard for me to stick to French...! It felt so great to be able to communicate with her but it had to be in Indonesian or I had to accept to be the only person in our whole environment not being able to easily communicate with her. I started to use Indonesian from time to time, what a joy to speak with my kid! And the vicious circle started.

Now they are 7 and 4. They speak fluent Indonesian and very very little French (it is actually hard to tell exactly how much since they never use it). No need to detail how terribly regretful I am now, not to have persevered with strict French at that crucial time. I feel I missed a huge thing. Now I'm trying to fix this by reverting to 100% French. The older one understands a good deal of basic sentences, the younger one fewer.

I am currently seriously wondering if it will be enough to actively stick to French from now on, read books with them, talk as much as I can, etc. I can do my best to increase the exposure to French but it will be harder to diversify the sources of French and to create the need for French for them. I am thus considering the option of putting a temporary end to our life here (that is, quitting my job and giving back our house) and moving to France for 1 or 2 years or the needed amount of time for them to learn fluent French (and the taste for cheese and saucisson

Nice to get to know you all and share with you.

Greetings,

Christophe

Adam Beck
Head Keeper

Author of "Maximize Your Child's Bilingual Ability" and "Bilingual Success Stories Around the World"

Posts: 2,176
Country (residing now): Japan
Country (originally from): USA
Children, Ages: Girl, 19 and Boy, 16
Majority Language: Japanese
Minority Language(s): English, Spanish

Hi from a French in Indonesia Oct 29, 2018 10:45:59 GMT 9

Quote

Post by Adam Beck on Oct 29, 2018 10:45:59 GMT 9

Oct 28, 2018 22:07:41 GMT 9 Christophe said:

Christophe, welcome! I'm sorry to hear that this first stage of your bilingual journey with your daughters has been so difficult, and the frustration you've been feeling is understandable. At the same time, despite these challenging circumstances, it's also true that progress can continue to be made over the months and years ahead with patient, persistent efforts to strengthen those two "core conditions" of exposure and need.

Look at it this way: At this point, your daughters can still acquire French in a process of "sequential bilingualism," adding the second language after the first (as opposed to "simultaneous bilingualism," where the two languages are acquired simultaneously from birth). After all, children (and even adults) all over the world are learning a second (or third, fourth, etc.) language after already acquiring proficiency in a first language. And you've already given your children the advantage of developing some passive ability in the target language, and passive ability is a very promising foundation for a future of active ability.

Considering your circumstances in Indonesia, if it's possible for you to spend some extended time in France while the kids are still small, that would no doubt be the most powerful way to address the current shortcomings in exposure and need. In fact, I expect that would turn things around quite quickly and enable you to activate their passive ability in French. Once that happens, you'll also be raising the odds that this breakthrough can carry on with sustainable progress after your family returns to Indonesia.

In the post Is It Too Late For My Child to Become Bilingual?, I suggest exactly this idea and mention a family that experienced the same kind of breakthrough you now seek...

1. Relocate to a new country or region

I’m not kidding. In fact, I heard from a family the other day who have done just that. They were in England, but their concern over their children’s development in French led them to decide to move to a French-speaking part of Switzerland. And the results, in the year since their relocation, have been impressive, with very solid gains in the children’s French.

I realize, of course, that this more dramatic option isn’t possible for everyone, but if it’s feasible—and if the bilingual goal is deeply important to you—then such a move could make all the difference in your child’s language development.

Christophe, in addition to that post, these articles may speak to your situation, too, and offer some useful ideas and encouragement...

7 Steps to Get Your Bilingual Child Using the Minority Language More Actively

What to Do When Your Bilingual Child Won’t Speak Your Language

Upset About Raising Bilingual Kids? That Might Be a Very Good Thing. (Really.)

Have You Failed at Raising a Bilingual Child?

I hope this initial response is helpful to you. Please keep us posted on your situation and don't hesitate to reach out, anytime, if we (or I, by private message or email) can lend support in some way.

Bilingual SuperKids: Supercharge the success and joy of your family's bilingual or multilingual journey with powerful private coaching from Adam Beck, author of "Maximize Your Child's Bilingual Ability" and "Bilingual Success Stories Around the World"
bilingualsuperkids.com

Christophe
New Keeper

Posts: 4

Country (residing now): Indonesia
Country (originally from): France
Children, Ages: Alice (7) & Jasmine (4)
Majority Language: Indonesian
Minority Language(s): French

Hi from a French in Indonesia Oct 30, 2018 12:26:23 GMT 9

Quote

Post by Christophe on Oct 30, 2018 12:26:23 GMT 9

Hi Adam,

Thank you very much for your reply and kind consideration. The good thing is that I am highly motivated in sticking to 100% French now (not only that but also making extra effort, for instance paying extra attention to how I reply, like reformulating in simple and clear French each sentence they say to me in Indonesian so that they hear the French version before I actually reply to what they say) and that my daughters have not been reluctant to it in the past 2 weeks that I've done that (although it is often hard for me tell if or how much they understand what I say). I have also greatly increased my use of French when I speak to my wife, especially when the kids are around, which is good for everybody.

Still weighing the pros and cons of a move to France. It's a tough decision when you have a job, a house and all your habits here, versus none of those there (and a much more expensive cost of living)! But I see it as a worthy investment for them, for their future, for us all, ... and to me it is extremely important that they speak fluent French. I'm just still trying to "estimate" if they possibly could gain active bilingualism while staying here in Indonesia. If I was sure that they can't, then I guess I would start packing our stuff quickly. From what I read here and there I got convinced that the answer was indeed no. But then I met that French mother here whose 8-yo daughter speaks and reads fluently Indonesian, French, Dutch and English (yes, that kind of person who makes you feel bad

... She is bilingual Dutch-French and decided to speak Dutch to her daughter from day 1, while the father spoke French, the environment spoke Indonesian and the daughter has attended English-speaking school from an early age) and she told me: "Stick to 100% French from now on and your daughters will eventually speak fluently, whatever their age now, you don't need to move to France". Yeah...easy to say for somebody who "succeeded" but it still made me think again! Do you have an opinion on this?

Anyway thanks again and I'll keep you posted!

Christophe

Amy
Star Keeper

***"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars" - Oscar Wilde***

Posts: 1,682

Country (residing now): France
Country (originally from): France
Children, Ages: 10 and 6year old girls
Majority Language: French
Minority Language(s): Spanish (ml1) & English (ml2)

Hi from a French in Indonesia Oct 30, 2018 17:43:49 GMT 9

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Post by Amy on Oct 30, 2018 17:43:49 GMT 9

Hi Christophe!

Welcome to this fantastic forum where you can find inspiration and support.

To start with, let me debunk this erroneous image this trilingual mum gave you: raising a bilingual child is not at all as easy as it looks: ourmlhome.wordpress.com/2018/07/05/food-for-thought-rearing-a-child-bilingual-is-like-looking-at-a-duck-swimming/
So don't fall for it, she probably struggled to get there too!

And don't have any regrets, use this energy to keep going...perseverance pays off in the very long run!

To start with, if you haven't done so yet, grab yourself a copy of Adam's book on www.amazon.com/Maximize-Your-Childs-Bilingual-Ability/dp/4908629013/ to get ideas and get a deeper understanding of bilingual education to help you find the strategy that will work for you (nb: nothing is straightforward, you might have to go through trial and error). It is a real bilingual parent's life saviour!

In a nutshell, there are 2 pillars to raising a bilingual child: exposure and creating need. Personally, I found creating need the hardest.

From what I read, I was wondering if your wife would be happy to support you and play the game of also learning French. Maybe having all your meals in French to start with, setting the example of being curious and eager to learn French. Or maybe trying to only use French when you are around. Seeing the whole family using the ml helps as it sets a positive example to the child who generally wants to imitate the grown-ups.

For extra exposure, have you started putting on a bit of French cartoons? For your 4 y.o, Pocoyo could be a good one as it is rather simple and I think they don't speak too fast. Petit ours brun and Tchoupi might also be good.

Do you play a bit of French nursery rhymes, children's songs, or even grown-up songs for you? Do you play French radio at all? Netflix (combined with Chromecast to broadcast on telly) and Spotify are very useful for this if you have them. If not, Youtube is great too. Now, that's for the passive exposure. The best exposure is the more active one like mingling with French natives who only speak French. Have you got French acquaintances around? Could you mix with the French expat community? Are there any French schools or French after-school classes around you?

For your eldest, why not try initiate a penpal relationship with a French cousin or grandparent. She dictates in ML and you write in French whilst teaching her how to say it. This will be great one-on-one time with her and might help her learn to express herself in ml.

Do you Skype with your French relatives within your kids' earshot or even better, have them try to participate?

It sounds like the ML has taken over the ml, which is normal given you live in the ml country. However, if you want to pass on your language and culture, you need to live and show them. Listen to ml radio/telly/programmes/music, let your children see you read in ml and speak the ml. Talk to them about your country, your family. Tell them that one day you'll take them there to discover where you grew up and where their grandparents live, etc. That might tickle their interest and curiosity. Build on the emotional ties to their French family.

As to moving to France for 2 years, have you thought of just taking a month or two of leave and take them to France? Wouldn't that be more economical and a good starting point before making such a drastic move?

Have your children ever been to France yet?

Hope these thoughts can help. Let us know how it goes.

Cheers from rainy Paris.

Amy

My guest post at Bilingual Monkeys: bilingualmonkeys.com/bilingual-families-and-limiting-the-influence-of-the-majority-language/

My blog in English: www.ourmlhome.wordpress.com My blog in French: bilingue.home.blog

Christophe
New Keeper

Posts: 4

Country (residing now): Indonesia
Country (originally from): France
Children, Ages: Alice (7) & Jasmine (4)
Majority Language: Indonesian
Minority Language(s): French

Hi from a French in Indonesia Oct 30, 2018 18:47:56 GMT 9

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Post by Christophe on Oct 30, 2018 18:47:56 GMT 9

Hi Amy and thank you very much for your reply.

Indeed the need for French language is difficult to create here. We are in a provincial town with very few French expats, all children of whom can speak Indonesian fluently besides French so if my daughters meet with them they all happily speak in Indonesian.

My wife would be happy to help and learn even though her French is very limited. But we are trying this way. As for cartoons, yes, they have watched cartoons in French from an early age but it looked very passive to me and the hundreds of times they watched Frozen didn't seem to make them learn some sentences. There is a positive side though: there is a lot of this strange thing called snow in Frozen and I told them that there is also some in France, so yes they are very willing to go to France now.

There is no French school around.

As for the move to France it is just that I feel that their French is really very low (I mean, really really), and France as a whole is next to non-existent in their lives. If they were 2 and 5 for instance I would still think that we can catch up by implementing the right strategy but now that they are 4 and 7 I just fear that it is too late for any other approach than a long-time stay in France. And even this long-time stay has to be taken as soon as possible if we want to establish strong literacy especially in written French.

By the way, to answer your question we only went to France once since the eldest one was born and that was 5 and a half years ago, so the eldest one went to France once when she was 1 and a half (say: never) and the youngest one never. So a stay in France would not only bring (I hope) fluent French to them but also some French-ness in the middle of their very strong Indonesian-ness.

Anyway... still thinking! Thanks again and have a nice day.

Christophe

Adam Beck
Head Keeper

Author of "Maximize Your Child's Bilingual Ability" and "Bilingual Success Stories Around the World"

Posts: 2,176
Country (residing now): Japan
Country (originally from): USA
Children, Ages: Girl, 19 and Boy, 16
Majority Language: Japanese
Minority Language(s): English, Spanish

Hi from a French in Indonesia Oct 31, 2018 10:00:30 GMT 9

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Post by Adam Beck on Oct 31, 2018 10:00:30 GMT 9

Christophe, it's difficult, of course, to predict exactly what would happen if you remain in Indonesia, or if you move to France, but here's my best guess of these two scenarios...

*If you remain in Indonesia, and you were as proactive as possible, their passive ability in French will continue to grow at a steady pace. Whether or not they will also begin to use French more actively within the next few years is hard to say, but the odds of this would certainly increase if you were able to arrange for trips to France more often and could find ways of strengthening their need for the language, such as seeking out other French speakers and settings. And as time goes by, and their passive ability gets stronger, activating that ability at an older age would likely become easier since the opportunities for them to engage in French, on their own (including reading books), would expand. However, given the circumstances you describe, I'm not sure you could expect much more than this sort of longer, gradual process toward the advanced French ability you desire for them.

*If you move to France for a couple of years or so, the odds are nearly 100% that they would begin actively using French within the first year, given the great spike in exposure and need through the immersion of society and school, family and friends. (Not to mention gaining greater cultural awareness on their French side.) So if you really want them to actively use French throughout the childhood years ahead--and moving to France is truly feasible for your family--then this big step would no doubt be the "short cut" to activating their language ability at a younger age.

Of course, I empathize with the many issues that moving would entail--and I don't want to sound like I'm advocating that choice--but, strictly in terms of language development, I think it's best to be realistic: while both choices can still eventually lead to the same successful end, the choice to remain in Indonesia means that the process would likely be far more gradual than the choice of moving to France, where a breakthrough would almost certainly occur within the first year. (Though it's still true that this newly active ability would then have to be nurtured and sustained after your return to Indonesia. Oh, the glorious challenges of raising bilingual children never end, do they?

)

Christophe, I hope these thoughts are helpful as you ponder the path forward. And again, let me stress that, either way, a lot of satisfying success awaits you and your children over the years ahead.

Raquel
Star Keeper

Posts: 1,234

Country (residing now): Spain
Country (originally from): Spain
Children, Ages: daughter (10) & son (7)
Majority Language: Spanish
Minority Language(s): English

Hi from a French in Indonesia Oct 31, 2018 19:36:52 GMT 9

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Post by Raquel on Oct 31, 2018 19:36:52 GMT 9

Welcome, Christophe!! I can't add much to everything that's been said. Obviously, moving to France would definitely help them learn the language much faster, but I think doing it in Indonesia should be feasible too, especially if their mom learns the language and starts using it with them.

As far as cartoons go, they're useless on their own, but it's extra French exposure -although passive- which is better than passive exposure to the ML.

I guess it all depends on how long you think you can wait before deciding things are or aren't working in Indonesia. If you feel you still have some time, then I'd make some changes there first and see how it goes. Once the time is up, you can decide whether things are working out or not, and whether you need to move to France. That's what I'd do, but everyone is different.

Mayken
Star Keeper

Cool in two languages!

Posts: 1,286

Country (residing now): France
Country (originally from): Germany
Children, Ages: Girl, 14
Majority Language: French
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Hi from a French in Indonesia Nov 1, 2018 0:55:37 GMT 9

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Post by Mayken on Nov 1, 2018 0:55:37 GMT 9

Bienvenue au Zoo, Christophe!

I can't think of anything to add to what my fellow zookeepers have already said, but I like Amy's suggestion of a one- or two-month stay in France, which might be more realistic than an outright move to France. Read the Bilingual Travelers guest posts on Adam's site Bilingual Monkeys to get an idea of how a (relatively) short stay in the ml country can give your kids' ml a huge boost.

Here is the most recent guest post, scroll down for links to the others.

French is our ML, but sometime ago I started a thread on resources for French as ml. Feel free to post there, there are several active zookeepers with French as either ML or ml.

And why not start a thread in the Track Your Progress forum of the zoo? It's a great motivator and a good place to interact with fellow zookeepers.

Cheers from Paris,

Mayken

My guest post at Bilingual Monkeys on traveling to our minority language country

Christophe
New Keeper

Posts: 4

Country (residing now): Indonesia
Country (originally from): France
Children, Ages: Alice (7) & Jasmine (4)
Majority Language: Indonesian
Minority Language(s): French

Hi from a French in Indonesia Nov 1, 2018 16:47:48 GMT 9

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Post by Christophe on Nov 1, 2018 16:47:48 GMT 9

Thank you all for your suggestions and kind support!

You have pretty much summarized all the different options:
1) moving to France full-time for a given period (1 year minimum, possibly more) until French becomes fluent and strong enough to be maintained when back in Indonesia
2) staying here in Indonesia, implementing the "strongest" possible strategy towards making French their second active language
3) "testing" option 2 for a while and if it fails switching to option 1
4) going for a 1 or 2-month vacation to France

The most tempting one to me would be option 3 as you suggest, Raquel. I just fear that it is already late (the eldest one is 7) and if it fails and we decide to move to France we'll have lost 1 or 2 more precious years (and entering French schools/curriculum at 9 without speaking French seems even more difficult and frightening). So you're raising the right question Raquel: do we have enough time for that?

As for option 4 I wish it could work, but I just have that feeling that it would not be enough, given their current level in French (extremely low) and the fact that back to our place in Indonesia French language will be almost totally absent. And it would be very difficult to repeat that strategy several times (budget, time, ...).

Option 2 is very comfortable but I seriously doubt it can work. French is too non-existent (and useless) in our Javanese countryside.

Option 1 is obviously the right choice language-wise but as you say it is drastic and would bring a world of uncertainty and insecurity.

I guess we could do a mix of options 1, 2 and 3: given that the school year starts in September we could decide that summer 2019 is the time for moving to France. Between now and next summer we do as much French as we can to prepare them in the best possible way. And then we take the plunge. They would be 8 and 5 by the time they start school in September 2019. Hoping it is not late for a quick catch-up.

Thanks again and have a great day!

Christophe

Raquel Star Keeper Posts: 1,234 Country (residing now): Spain Country (originally from): Spain Children, Ages: daughter (10) & son (7) Majority Language: Spanish Minority Language(s): English	Hi from a French in Indonesia Nov 16, 2018 22:27:11 GMT 9 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by Raquel on Nov 16, 2018 22:27:11 GMT 9 It looks like you have your answer right there, Christophe. Please keep us posted on how things are going before and after the move.

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